Tier 1/2/3 providers?

[James]

Would we have different grades of membership depending on the providers tiering level.

I can see problems if we accredit a tier 2/3/4/5 reseller who is selling on behalf of CI host. Although they may offer a great service of their own, they could be at risk of malpractice not of their own doing.

[Phoenix]

First we'd need to define the Tiers. There are no fixed definition for Tier 1 ISP's, yet that is common vernacular for a large ISP. It's one of those terms based on marketing not engineering. They just started calling themselves that, and there are no other tiers. If there were such standards it would be:

Tier 1 National Internet backbone network
Tier 2 Local Internet Backbone network
Tier 3 Co-located equipment
Tier 4 Reseller

How would you categorize our industry into Tiers?

Tier 1 ISP with Internet backbone
Tier 2 NOC connected to ISP
Tier 3 Self-administered Co-located server hosted at NOC
Tier 4 Dedicated server administered by NOC
Tier 5 Wholesale reseller
Tier 6 Retail Reseller

[Sesran]

Currently being a reseller, I have strong opinions of disclosing that info to potential customers and the hosts that use it against you.(Believe me, some hosts do) The quality of service I offer is of my doing, not the host I am using. I provide my own support, billing, and everything. If the NOC goes down, I explain the problem. Basically, the only thing I do not do at the moment is maintain my own server. However, when I do, there will be no difference in service for my customers. I will still offer the same support and stuff, but I will now have more work to do. I will still be using the same NOC. I do know that it is bad for business to disclose this info to the public.

[Phoenix]

Decisions about how much information to disclose about members will probably be very in-depth. We'll want to build a database of members. And accredit people within the organization according to what tier they are at, and these accreditations will change over time as resellers purchase servers, eventually building their own NOC's.

Perhaps, for members accessing the database, more in-depth information could be made available so that if a reseller is looking for a server-owner to resell for, he can get a list of them and then get more granularity on each, or if a NOC owner receives an inquiry from someone wanting to purchase a server, they can see if that person is already a member and at what level. And can then work with them to ensure that they can meet the accreditation standards for that level if they are changing tiers.

By strengthening the chain between NOC's, server owners, and resellers, any reseller who is using accredited providers will have the edge over any non-accredited provider at any level-because they will be able to guarantee that the entire chain is solid, and will support them, as opposed to a fly-by-night company.

We may even see a shift in how our industry does business, with NOC's serving as the 'manufacturing' sector, the server owners as the 'wholesale' sector, and the resellers as the 'retail' end. Anything is possible as our industry is still growing and defining itself. Hybrid companies will always exist, but they may be less common, as the years go by. this is pure speculation, but based on how a lot of other established industries do business.

For the public, perhaps all that is needed is a simple yes or no, how long the company's been in business, and information about any complaints filed about a particular company (similar to what you get if you run a search on the BBB's database).

[James]

I think one of the industry's main problem is its lack of transparency. We get a lot of feedback from customers who are annoyed to find that after being hosted by a poor provider they have unwittingly moved to one that same providers resellers.

CI Host currently has over 7000 resellers. They're currently signing up around 350 new customers a day. How many of those customers would have signed up had they known about CI Hosts past?

I get your point Sesran, but consumers should still be given access to more information prior to signing on the dotted line. No matter how good your customer support is, if your billing is being handled by a prime host, rather than yourself, you customers may be a risk.

[Sesran]

Originally posted by James Cross
I get your point Sesran, but consumers should still be given access to more information prior to signing on the dotted line. No matter how good your customer support is, if your billing is being handled by a prime host, rather than yourself, you customers may be a risk.
I do not agree, I am responcible for my customers regardless of what happens. Take the VDI problems of the past month for instance. I was in contact with my clients all the way through, I told them of the NOC problem and I assured them that it will be taken care of. I contacted the host I resell for and let them know that if this keeps up I will be leaving. I set a time frame and continued to monitor the situation. I finally realized that no matter what happened with VDI, there was no way I could continue to use them with their damaged reputation. I then asked my host what their intentions were, because I am not staying on VDI. I was told they were working on the solution. Hence forth Ventures Online is moving to Verio. The point is, no matter who I was reselling for, I was taking care of my customers to ensure that everything went back to normal.
If it needs to be disclosed that I am a reseller and for whom, by this commitee, I will do one of two things, either not be apart of the committee or prematurely sign up for my dedicated. I do not want to do either, but I have worked long and hard to build my customer relations and run a transperant, honest, business to be forced to disclose this.

[James]

Originally posted by Sesran

I have worked long and hard to build my customer relations and run a transparent, honest, business to be forced to disclose this.

How can it be truly transparent if you haven't disclosed to your customers who they're really being hosted with? I really don't see the big deal with this issue.

An example of this in other related industries is the ISP market in the UK. Web Host Directory purchased a high speed leased/fixed line to the internet last year. The company we purchased from is called www.nextra.co.uk. Since then we've had no end of problems with our connection, the majority of which had nothing to do with Nextra. It was down to their peering agreements. This was fully disclosed prior to us signing a contract. We didn't have a problem in the fact that they didn't own their own transatlantic pipes. We chose them because of customer service, price and personal recommendations.

Now it would have been another story if during negotiating the deal they had given the impression that they owned their whole network and could guarantee bandwidth across the Atlantic.

Essentially being a reseller and not disclosing who your selling on behalf of leads to mistrust, and will ultimately only end in problems.

[Phoenix]

Anyone want to take the point and troll for some resellers for the planning committee? As they represent the largest segment of our industry, we will need to get some more of their voices on here as well. This seems to be rather a hot issue, based upon Sesran's reluctance to disclose his reseller status.

A lot of this has to do with setting customer expectations. As Sesran stated, he's had issues that were beyond his control (VDI's using Level3 for their connectivity-what were they thinking?), but if your customers don't know that you are a reseller, how are they going to know what to expect up front?

Customers don't know who is responsible for what, and they tend to expect that if their site is down, that you will be able to fix it-whether it's a server issue, a connectivity issue, or a backbone issue-or whether you will tell them that the issue is beyond your control.

[Sesran]

We have no problem disclosing to our customers who we resell from. The biggest problem we have found is other hosts who use the fact that you are a reseller against you to make there business bigger. Trust me, not all hosts are honest or fair. All our customers know we are reselling.

[Phoenix]

We have no problem disclosing to our customers who we resell from.

Okay, so, after the sale, you'd provide full disclosure of your supply chain?


The biggest problem we have found is other hosts who use the fact that you are a reseller against you to make there business bigger. Trust me, not all hosts are honest or fair.

And these are exactly the hosts that wouldn't be allowed in any professional trade organization. Honesty and fair play are something that is required.

If your entire supply chain is certified, and they are just some random server owner, that gives you the edge over them regardless of their claims.

[Sesran]

Originally posted by Phoenix
Okay, so, after the sale, you'd provide full disclosure of your supply chain?
I would supply it prior to the sale, I just do not openly post it on the site. I am not ashamed that I resell for VO currently on VDI. (Although the VDI part is a little rough) Soon to be Verio. I just do not want this to be the deciding factor prior to the first contact. I tend to keep VO out of the picture prior to a sale, because why would you buy from me if you can buy from my supplier cheaper. And I will be the first to say that VO is awesome.

[Phoenix]

This issue is definitely one that is going to need more discussion. Especially with the reseller segment of the industry exploding right now. They will be the largest group of the member base.

[James]

Sesran, Dont get me wrong. I havent got a problem with resellers. most of my best customers are resellers.

I agree with Phoenix, this area need careful thought and discussion to avoid potentially damaging peoples businesses.

[Sesran]

Originally posted by James Cross
this area need careful thought and discussion to avoid potentially damaging peoples businesses.
This is my point exactly. I am not here to lie to customers or mislead them in any way, but I do not want to hurt my business in any way right now.

[James]

Comletely understand your reasoning now. Sorry for the confusion earlier.

BTW: Love the avatar :)

[Phoenix]

Okay, getting back on topic. The main reason for determining Tiers for internal use. Different certification standards as well as different dues structures would be expected from a NOC, as from a dedicated server host, as from a reseller.

A NOC would have to be certified on their network, as well as their server administration, transit providers, support, billing, where a dedicated server host would have fewer areas to be certified in as he has no control over the network, transit, or the hardware.

A retail reseller with 1000 end-user customers would not be expected to pay the same amount of dues as a NOC with 1000 servers, nor would a NOC with 10 servers be expected to pay the same as a much larger operation of the same type.

These were the suggestions I had


Tier 1 ISP with Internet backbone - provides Internet transit to NOC's AND provides server co-location and/or dedicated servers to wholesale resellers and/or retail resellers and/or end users (ISP's that only provide transit don't qualify as a web host)
Tier 2 NOC connected to ISP - provides server co-location and/or dedicated servers to wholesale resellers and/or retail resellers and/or end users
Tier 3 Self-administered Co-located server hosted at NOC - provides hosting to wholesale resellers and/or retail resellers and/or end users
Tier 4 Dedicated server administered by NOC - provides hosting to wholesale resellers and/or retail resellers and/or end users
Tier 5 Wholesale reseller - provides hosting to retail resellers and/ or end users
Tier 6 Retail Reseller - only provides hosting to end users

[James]

I was talking to Tommy about this last night, and from your descriptions we're definately on the same wave length.

[Tommy]

Originally posted by Phoenix

These were the suggestions I had


Tier 1 ISP with Internet backbone - provides Internet transit to NOC's AND provides server co-location and/or dedicated servers to wholesale resellers and/or retail resellers and/or end users (ISP's that only provide transit don't qualify as a web host)
Tier 2 NOC connected to ISP - provides server co-location and/or dedicated servers to wholesale resellers and/or retail resellers and/or end users
Tier 3 Self-administered Co-located server hosted at NOC - provides hosting to wholesale resellers and/or retail resellers and/or end users
Tier 4 Dedicated server administered by NOC - provides hosting to wholesale resellers and/or retail resellers and/or end users
Tier 5 Wholesale reseller - provides hosting to retail resellers and/ or end users
Tier 6 Retail Reseller - only provides hosting to end users



I agree with this list.

I think each Tier should have different criteria to be asessed against. You would expect different standards to be acheived from Tier 1 to Tier 6. We must compare apples with apples.

[Phoenix]

Originally posted by Tommy
I think each Tier should have different criteria to be asessed against. You would expect different standards to be acheived from Tier 1 to Tier 6. We must compare apples with apples.

Exactamundo-Once we get the rest of the committee seated and they have time to review these specs, we can poll them and see if we are all in agreement.

[allera]

I agree with the list and its description.