combatting chargebacks...

[daydreamer]

Hello,

We've all had our fill of chargebacks. I've thought for a long time that there should be a tool to help nip it in the butt. Myself and a couple of friends at Dreamsweb.net thought, what better tool than a searchable MySQL powered database forum.

We think that there should be a community where web host administrators could go to share any information on chargebackers. That way if you are suspicious of a client, you can do a search to look for any similarities. i.e. names, addresses, phone numbers, web site names, and maybe last four ccn's.

This is a completely private and free forum. All that you have to do is register with an administrative address from your hosting company.

The site is coming alive now, so it may not be up in your area yet.

I hope that we are not the only ones that see a need for this. After we saw a client charge back after 6 months of service last week, we felt that it was time to do something. There is a lot that credit card companies will not tell you that you have to learn by experience, so let's enlighten each other in what we have learned.

www.chargingback.com/board/index.php3

daydreamer

[M6.net]

Yeah, we are sick of these chargeback too. I have asked our billing person to sign with the forum you have created. Its so easy now a day to make people work for you for free. Sign with them, use them for 9/10 months and put a charge back... bloddy banks ($&^$%&^&*^)

Another case - sign an account, spam the whole world using mail server and whne the account is closed by the web host, put a charge back... bank will favor that bast**d too...

Really tired off these charge back.

[daydreamer]

spoon_****

Where do you see Spam?

Chargebacks are very serious to the business owners here. Although I am sure the moderators here appreciate your forum patrols, if they had thought it was Spam, they knew where the delete button was.

This is an important tool for web hosting companies, not a site looking for business. If we were looking for business, we would not have come to a community of web host. I'm sure they have their own servers.

Go patrol a Barbie Board... :lol:

dd

P.S. Thanks for moving this thread back to the top. :D

[Locu]

Now this sounds like an excellent idea. I just registered and found only 3 listings, so apparently it hasn't hit peak yet in other webhosters minds.

I'm thinking though.. we have too many new customers to go and check a bulletin board on every customers. How about just a form, or rather, just a cgi with a single entry you can search for name, address, phone, etc.. Just something any host can tie into their order system, and perhaps if a bad report is returned it doesn't automatically qualify them and puts them in a manual queue for setup.

Only problem I see here, is most web hosting companies are strickly in it for themselves, and the $$. Most web hosting companies would actually prefer to see the customer go elsewhere (to competition) and signup. So I don't see a very high turn-out unfortunatly.

In fact.. sounds like a good sunday project.. i'll post the url later. =)

[Locu]

OK.. easier than I thought.. How about something like this?

Basically a URL, and you can pass any variable on to it with customer information. I'd recommend using phone #, email, or domain name.

Try it out. I put in one bad record "John Doe" with a few listed domains.. "jdoe.com" "cyberjoe.com".

So, just use these links.
For a bad guy returned click here:
http://www.fiberoptix.net/chargeback/cb.cgi?jdoe.com

And for a good return here:
http://www.fiberoptix.net/chargeback/cb.cgi?goodguy.com

or, once clicking on the 1st link, fill in after the ? on the link with any of the listed domains or info from mr John Doe, to bring up the record.

This seems like a better way to handle these if hosts would use it and submit bad guys when they arrive. With this method, it could be build right into your order forms, and wala, customer doesn't get auto-setup.

Thoughts?

[daydreamer]

Same principle without the discussion board.

You will need to make sure that not just anyone can enter information into the database.
You might want to have an entry for the party that is entering the info so others can ask what problems they had with the client.

I really thought the Message Board would have taken off much better than it has. This is a growing problem and it WILL get out of hand. We will need every tool available to put these people out of business...

BTW, the board is up for sale if anyone is interested. You can contact Zach at admin@chargingback.com.

dd

[Locu]

Yup, I just threw in a few more lines for comments if you reload the bad guy link they show now. That's just the interface that would be used when taking orders, or possibly tying into an order form. Naturally there would be a signup process for webhosts to qualify to be able to add entries into the database, and likewise, and entry form for customers who were denied access to webhosts to be able to appeal their listing in the database. Kinda like orbs.

I'll throw in a $35 offer for the chargingback.com domain. ;)

Just a quick search.. chargeback.com is owned by some people I used to do business with ccom.net.. funny I guess, but they don't appear to be hosting anything there. Also, looks like someone else thought of the same idea at nochargebacks.com... of course, they've had their "coming soon" banner there it looks since about 7/31/1998.

[HyperHosting]

If your site does take off it would be great if you could offer some sort of script so we can automate the process of checking for bad accounts.

Right now we use HostAbuse.com at:
http://www.hostabuse.com

It's nice because it's very easy to integrate in to billing so it can automatically check for people that do perform chargebacks.

In terms of what I've personally found the number one source of chargebacks for us is from our old referral program, which was run by an unnamed vendor. It got so bad that I had to filter out about $15,000 worth of fake orders from someone trying to inflate their commission and to get their account probably to spam. Each time he used different credit card numbers, with the real persons name and address, and they probably would have got by if it wasn't for the email addresses he used and for the domain name.

The concerning part was that he had all their information to back up the fake order.

My suggestion would be to follow the HostAbuse type system for searching for bad accounts and then using the message board to link people together so they may discuss the transaction in question.

[daydreamer]

HyperHosting,

Hostabuse only checks for the domain name. I find that most abusers do not use their domains that they wish to keep. That is why I think that Zachary is on to something with the forum so that you can enter ANYTHING you think will help in stopping this person.

The sad part is that Locu was right about Hosting companies not wanting to help each other. What goes around, comes around...

You can make a form to search the board from anywhere as long as the computer you are using is cookied into the board. I would not suggest intergrading it into a signup form because there are way too many variables that can match. A single domain name works well with Hostabuse as long as they are using the same domain again. :rolleyes:

dd

[Locu]

I posted the idea on a webhosting mailling list, and got nothing but positive feedback and suggestions. It sounds like it's a go. I think the critical things to search for would be:
1. domain name(s)
2. company name
3. individual name
4. first 2 and last 5 digits of credit card
5. address
6. reasons.

Everyone is familiar with orbs? Known mail abuse blackhole list. I believe this should work in a similar fashion. Except with a few modifications.

1. Only reputable businesses may query the database more than once/month. This will give consumers the opportunity to search for themselves, but not search for others.
2. Certainly only reputable businesses may add to the database.. naturally we don't want Joe who just hates Tom to be plastering Tom's name all over the database.
3. Naturally a good security and log system. If somebody reports somebody to the database, they will need to have supporting documents and may be asked for them in the event of a dispute.
4. A way for consumers to get themselves out of the database. Similar to how credit system works, pay your past bills and get yourself removed, or prove that you were in the right. Again, that would work similar to a credit system in that a customer may submit a dispute, and then the info is checked w/ the company who reported them. If the company who reported can not come up w/ compelling evidence as to why customer was listed, then they will be removed.

I think item #4 is the biggest legal hassel. According to US Law, especially dealing with commerce, if there is any listing of delinquent or otherwise naughty accounts shared with other commerce companies, the consumer must have means to have themselves removed from the list.

Other comments welcome.. I'll begin the project tonight. I'll also need to check for any other legal loopholes.

[HyperHosting]

Hostabuse only checks for the domain name.

I forget where on their site they documented it but they can only legally reveal such much information. I don't know the consumer privacy a law enough but if you have all records openly out in a forum I can see privacy issues there. I like the forum idea to discuss it after a matching fraud record is found but if it's just openly available to everyone there are privacy issues there for the consumer. Don't get me wrong we share the same viewpoint on the chargeback issue but the open forum may not be the best way from a privacy standpoint.


I find that most abusers do not use their domains that they wish to keep.

That would be the most logical thing if it was a quick incident like a spammer. However, if it were a person that had their own personal site at a domain they liked and they did a chargeback six months later then it would most likely stop them. I've actually had first hand incidents where a customer performs a chargeback goes to another host and then tries to come back again after the chargeback. I don't understand their thought process on that one but I assure you it does happen.

Again, I like your sites idea and feel it's very much so needed but I don't know if you can legally list all that persons information. I know I was told directly by counsel that I couldn't even email another host notifying them that their new customer was a spammer. I saw the domain change to another host?s nameservers and planned to inform them but I wasn't legally able to accord to my lawyer. Perhaps someone else knows the exact laws in question and can explain it better then I can.

[Locu]

I forget where on their site they documented it but they can only legally reveal such much information. I don't know the consumer privacy a law enough but if you have all records openly out in a forum I can see privacy issues there.

I would like to locate some documentation on what is and what is not legal. I will be contacting some people today to try to find the info, but if anyone has any pointers that would be great.

Looking about, consumers have an option to complain or list bad businesses, the BBB right? And businesses have a way to check on a customer's credit through credit reports right.. however, the problem being is that how much does a webhost have to pay to do a credit check, and even more importantly, you would have to collect a SSN to run a check, and there aren't exactly a lot of consumers who like to put their SSN in an order form. I do believe there should be a way, a no cost solution for businesses to check.. I think this discussion is developing the idea and the start of another Equifax (credit bureau), just without the heavy income that equifax has.

I think the way to start this off is address the needs of this forum. Let's make this thing work for us first, then expand to others as the need arises. So the more suggessions the better!

Everyone have a great monday!

[HyperHosting]

Originally posted by Locu
Looking about, consumers have an option to complain or list bad businesses, the BBB right? And businesses have a way to check on a customer's credit through credit reports right.. however, the problem being is that how much does a webhost have to pay to do a credit check, and even more importantly, you would have to collect a SSN to run a check, and there aren't exactly a lot of consumers who like to put their SSN in an order form. I do believe there should be a way, a no cost solution for businesses to check.. I think this discussion is developing the idea and the start of another Equifax (credit bureau), just without the heavy income that equifax has.

Usually you do need a social security number to run a credit check. Also, your not allowed to run a credit check without recorded verbal or written permission from the consumer. That might be a nice way to see if they pay on time but it would also cause you to loose a lot of business.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure a credit check doesn't show if the consumer has charged back a particular transaction. If that's the case it does little good as they may pay their bills on time so it comes away clean and yet the customer is a spammer.

I think the biggest help would be to know how much information daydreamer could legally publish or more correctly allow to be published on his site without breaking any laws. I don't think you'll be allowed to run it all through a message board and if a consumer gets upset about you having posted his information he may be able to prove defamation of character and I'd rather avoid being in such a suit.

I'd suggest contacting counsel before you start running the site or it may get you in a bunch of trouble down the road if you run it openly allowing everyone to post information. You will also need to verify the information posted as if it's on your site you are usually liable for it.

[Phoenix]

Amen HyperHosting,

It's a good idea, but it should be thoroughly vetted by legal counsel before being initiated.

Consumers do have the right to file complaints with the better business bureau, which is a neutral third-party organization formed for that purpose, but when a group of businesses decide to create a shared pool of information to, in effect, blacklist customers according to certain criteria, it has to be done rather carefully. Especially as web hosting customers are a mixture of consumers and businesses and different rules apply to each.

National ISP's utilize a system of this nature, the National Telecommunication Data Exchange (ntde.com). It required the creation of a non-profit organization, the approval of the department of Justice, and the database is managed by third party Equifax to prevent collusion. Before they can run a check against this database they have to have your signature of approval to have your credit checked.

The member companies also do not get any information other than a credit report number, which goes back to the company whose credit they just checked. It's that company who gets the copy of the credit report-not the one who ran the credit check.

[Jaiem]

Phoenix,

What about other groups and organizations that hold themselves out to be advocates for consumers? Do all these groups have to play by the same laws?

I'm thinking of groups like SpamCop and other apparently self-appointed watch-dog and complaint registration services.

[Phoenix]

Originally posted by Jaiem
What about other groups and organizations that hold themselves out to be advocates for consumers? Do all these groups have to play by the same laws?

I'm thinking of groups like SpamCop and other apparently self-appointed watch-dog and complaint registration services.

(does best Dr. McCoy imitatio) "Dammit, Jaiem, I'm a web host, not a lawyer."

There's a big difference between consumer advocates and the proposed organization, different rules apply. Companies that keep credit records do not exist for the good of the consumer. They exist for the good of those extending credit.

If a business gives a consumer the shaft, they have certain protections under the law, such as the Consumer Protection Act. They can seek out the Attorney General's office in their state, get a lawyer and sue for triple damages, call 60 minutes.

Or they can seek out a consumer advocate. A consumer advocate goes to bat for consumers against businesses when that consumer feels they have been wronged.

Consumer advocates are normally non-profit organizations organized of consumers to watch dog over businesses, or government agencies. Spam cop isn't a consumer advocate either, they make software, the spam reports basically add additional filters to their software, and they sell subscriptions to their services. It just looks like they are a consumer advocate.

Most of the self-appointed individuals doing consumer advocacy are media people-except for Ralph Nader who is a politician. Note: the media is not a consumer advocate, they do exposes for ratings. ratings = advertising, advertisting = money

[Locu]

So basically.. if something like this were to remain legal, it would have to be something along the lines, of a common database where webhosts can share data. Not customer data, just _ANY_ data, and if included in this data is a listing of bad customers who like to mess over webhosting companies, then so-be-it, it's just random data in the database.

Hence, a service offered, but anyone can use it however they want and it's suggested use is not for finding bad customers or rejecting business.

[ValuableHost]

Yes, charge-backs are very common! :( ! especially with false accusations but the customer!, thanks for the board!

Kindest Regards,
ValuableHost